Do you support dropping box the gnat?
Please provide your final thoughts on dropping/keeping this call. Please contribute your thoughts and comments in a focused and professional manner that reflects how your opinion strengthens the final program. It is important to limit your points to the specific call being discussed.
We should drop Box the Gnat to help the committee fulfill it’s purpose, which is to create a shorter entry program. I believe that for every call proposed as a drop, there will be callers who will vote against dropping. We need to make hard decisions to create the shorter entry program that is our goal.
Like many here, I would vote against dropping Box the Gnat. The combination of Pass Thru and U-Turn do not smoothly replace the Box Gnat call – examples: Grand R/L then Pass Thru and U-Turn Back to Wrong Way Grand lacks the smoothness of Box Gnat. Box the Gnat also places emphasis on using Right Hand for calls like BTG to Right & Left Thru or Grand R/L.
I would like to keep Box the Gnat. It adds a very danceable feel to our dance and is easy to teach with a demo, and dropping it would only cater to an old dance population. Let’s keep the dance in square dancing.
Let’s drop it and let another level pick it up. It’s not a bad call (taught properly) but there are other calls which will help make this new MS good.
On balance, I am inclined to drop BtG.
Compared to “Pass Thru, U-turn Back”, BtG has the additional disadvantage of being gendered – different actions for men and women. Fine for clubs that are strictly couples, but can be awkward for singles-friendly clubs, where dancers may switch gender roles to balance the squares.
I am opposite the dropping “Box the Gnat” call.
I think that “Box the Gnat” is fun because of its unique movement.
There was a suggestion that it be dropped from the entry program. For example, the movement equivalent to BTG could be substituted with “Single Circle 1/2.”
However, the meaning is different between equivalent calls and drop calls.
The decision on drop calls should be based on whether the movement is easy to dance and fun.
I am in favor of dropping box the gnat. There are lot of other good ways to get the same choreographic result. Also for dancers with shoulder problems it is not a good call
Do not remove Box the Gnat. It’s another move that puts the dance in Square Dance.
Box the Gnat , R & L Thru, beautiful flow. Same for Box the Gnat, R & L Grand
Let’s vote to keep the dance in square dance.
As some people have already pointed out, although this call can be replaced fairly easily with other calls, many people find it fun/dancey and it’s pretty easy to teach. So why not include it?
Because every call takes some time to teach. Every call that is taught takes up practice time in subsequent class sessions. Every call name is one more thing that new dancers need to find room for in their brain at the same time as they are still learning even more basic skills. In short, every call we add OR KEEP is working directly against the goal of shorter, faster, more frequent classes.
So it comes down to priorities. If you believe the key to revitalizing square dancing is shorter and more frequent classes, then it makes sense to cut the list of WHAT EVERY NEW DANCER MUST LEARN to the minimum needed to have a viable program. That’s the whole point of a standardized entry level program — not to limit people, but to define what MUST BE TAUGHT before new people can attend a dance, with people who learned in other classes. And if that is the goal, I don’t think Box the Gnat makes the cut. There is plenty of choreography available that doesn’t rely on Box the Gnat.
Where does this leave calls like this, that may be useful or fun or just the natural fit for a particular singing call, and aren’t that hard to teach? They can of course be retained as part of the next program. But that’s not the only way to make use of them.
PRECISELY BECAUSE IT IS SO EASY TO TEACH, there is no need for Box the Gnat to be included as part of that universal standard set of “must be taught to everybody before they are allowed to dance” calls. You can just teach it in your patter, as a “fun extra call” (which they won’t need to remember or practice later), and then use it in your singing call.
Agree completely, Joe! It’s not that I don’t like Box the Gnat (or any of the other calls we’re discussing). Instead, it’s about making the list smaller. I’m in favor of dropping selected calls and NOT adding others to get back up to an arbitrary limit.
Instead, I’m all about shaving time off the teaching part, letting dancers get out on the floor faster.
I think we need to keep Box The Gnat as, like many, it is a lovely “Dance Move”. Yes you can do Pass Thru and U Turn Back, but that isn’t as satisfying. I remember, when I first started dancing my favourite combination to dance was RLG, Box The Gnat, Wrong Way Grand. We need to keep DANCE MOVES to ensure it is still Square DANCE.
BTG contains a true dancing element. I think this is important for the entry level. Although you can achieve the same choreographic effect with other calls or combinations, the feel is different. I think we should keep it.
Mickey, this is so true. It is a “dancing element”. While we call it square dancing, I believe the emphasis should be on DANCING. Many have given choreographic alternatives, but, as Dottie said, where is the FUN? Hand connection is the part of dancing we offer to the world. Since the 70’s, many dance styles involve people standing near each other and moving their arms and legs. Square dance offers a chance to actually connect with those other people. When we do get younger (under 40) students, they have already tried swing dancing and recognize BTG as an element they are familiar with.
I, too, am very sensitive to the joint difficulties of our older dancers, but aren’t we writing this new plan for the future; to also entertain younger dancers who will re-populate our activity?
Finally, a comment from my wife, who has square danced since the 1960’s. Her favorite all time combination of calls is/was Box the Gnat, change hands and Swat the Flea, Curlicue…..look it up.
I support keeping BTG.
I prefer not to drop the call. I personally use it a fair amount to help get people normal and to easily change directions. I feel like it has a lot of utility. In plus I can use touch a quarter and roll to replace it, but that’s only for plus. Possibly bringing roll down and being able to use that combination to replace box the gnat would work better to keep from having people raise their arms high in the air to do the move.
I am in favor of dropping Box the Gnat. Although I have been using it a little more recently, I think it should go. I am in agreement with those who have said they only use it because it is on the list, and they need to. I see it used mostly in “Circle” choreography, but seldom used otherwise. Many dancers (especially long time dancers) struggle with it, as they try to end in a mini-wave instead of facing dancers. The one thing I like about BTG is that it maintains the physical connection between dancers, which I think is important, especially with new dancers.
Box the Gnat is just one “named combination” of moves. I have no problem dropping it. I suggest that if you want to shorten the list, start thinking about dropping “names.”
Pass Thru, ‘U’ Turn back does the exact same thing as Box the Gnat, leaving both hands free. It’s also non-gender specific. No one with the exception of a few callers would miss it. Drop it with no intention of adding anything.
I can go either way on BTG. I don’t use it much unless it is what I am teaching or happen to realize that I have not called it at a dance. In other words I force myself to use it. I seldom need or find it useful.
I think Box the Gnat is fun to dance and very useful. It is a great way to get into Wrong Way Grand and an easy way to change half-sashayed couples to normal couples or vice versa. However, I suppose we could use Touch 1/4 and Face Right instead. That is very close to the Boy’s action anyway.
Personally, I prefer to keep Box the Gnat. It’s a fun call that the dancers can enjoy “if they are taught correctly”. I spend a lot of time when teaching it to make sure that the dancers understand the risk and making sure they know how to box without hurting someone else. Of course, my daughter sometimes hates when I teach it, because I use her for the demonstration of “what not to do” ;). The most problem I see with BTG is not the arm turn/twirl risks, it’s that the dancers haven’t been taught to emphasize that it ends with them facing the opposite direction, which means that when called it can cause a breakdown. As someone mentioned above, there is a great tendency for people to only turn a quarter instead of half, which can leave the floor in an awkward place.
All that being said, I can go either way on Box the Gnat. I would prefer to keep it where it is, but I won’t be “heartbroken” to see it move up to the Plus level. But please be cautious about looking to remove the calls that maintain connections. We do need those calls!
Let’s squash the Gnat. I use it, but I can find other equivalents to get me to the same spot. I like Harlan’s Single Circle 1/2. I don’t even know that we need to move it up to another level. Again, just my thought.
I feel that because dropping this call will only move it up to Plus, I would keep it. I prefer it on the entry program.
Again, I believe you can achieve nice dance flow with Single Circle 1/2 and that it is much easier than Box the
gnat.
I’m in favour of keeping box the gnat. I prefer to use it instead of pass thru U-turn as I find it flows better. As we don’t have walk around & see saw, it can also be used with some circle movements to create some different choreo. It allows an easy change to half sashayed lines and the reverse. I don’t think this movement is too hard on our older generation as long as we allow the different hand grips.
I like BTG and use it with my newer dancers as well as experienced ones. It is a good kinesthetic move for dancers. It sets up Wrong Way Grand nicely. I use it from lines facing in and 8 Chain Thru formations. There is a bit of teaching to make it smooth, but it adds choreographic variety without complexity. I would like it to stay in the program.
Personally, I enjoy having Box the Gnat on the program and I do use it.
I would prefer to keep it.
Drop it from the entry-list and put it to the 2nd list.
It’s great to get dancers into an half sashey position (from normal lines) and go furher with the centers as normal couple
And yhan we have to look at the defenition.
I have to admit, that I use it rarely at mainstream dances. Most of the time I’ll have it, as “box the gnat and roll” in plus tips. So, I don’t need it in an entrance program. Drop.
Like several others, I am on the fence.
My likes: it’s a traditional, fun call; it normalizes 1/2 sashayed couples easily – especially for newer callers; it mimicks Jitterbug dancing
My dislikes: it’s awkward, new dancers have a tendency to not end up facing the correct way, I personally have a shoulder disability and can’t do it – but I also can’t do star thru & CA twirl either.
If it were to “go away” from the beginners (Basic???) list, there are several equivalents that are easier to do, but I think it should just be moved to whatever the next level will be called (Plus???) not dropped forever.
I will agree with Wendy that the call is funny as I often call it “Box the Gah-Nat”. This would be an easy drop from my program. I do not use it to “fix” or create anything really other than a WW Grand or a get out. I use Separate to get in and out of odder pairings early in their learning stage. Folds and Tags I think are much more eloquent to do that job as well, and Hinges/Trades/Runs work just as well if desired. And I concur Pass Thru and U-Turn Back is just as effective if you really need it.
If I’m using BTG, it’s because it’s on the list and I HAVE to. Or I make myself use it, just for the sake of using it. It’s not a go to of mine.
Another “issue” that seems to be occurring is that of dancers dancing the “other side” to assist with filling in squares, or due to the loss of a partner etc. Height differences are easily overcome in a California Twirl as they’ve all been “taught” a work around (Partner Trade) so it’s almost intuitive if there’s a big height issue. BTG is not as intuitive and I see those dancers struggle often to find a shortcut. I’m sympathetic to the shoulder stuff as well – but I agree that we shouldn’t create the list for the seasoned dancers.
I’ll use it, as I try to use all the calls on the list, but I wouldn’t miss it.
I want to keep BTG. Besides the ease of use to normalize half-sashayed couples and to flow into a WWG, it’s fun to teach because of the name of the call! A silly comment, maybe, but Fun is Good. We’re supposed to be looking at dropping calls that make SSD dancing difficult to learn. There are much harder calls to drop than this one.
I could go either way with BTG. It’s another call that adds variety and I use it fairly often, even if I get dirty looks from dancers when I call it.
If it is dropped, then we get to be creative and come up with something comparable with what moves we will have left on the list.
In light of what our goal is, “to make a smaller (less calls) entry level program”, I am in favor of dropping this call. Remember, that does not mean we are doing away with the call, just moving it to a different program, besides entry level. I don’t believe there will be any calls where someone does not have a valid point in keeping or eliminating that call. After we have voted to drop whatever said calls are on that drop list, I don’t believe we should be adding any calls to the entry level program list. That does not accomplish the goal of a smaller (less calls to learn) program list. For me, to accomplish our goal, I am in favor of dropping all 4 calls listed.
I can live without “Box the Gnat”, but I would also like to keep it.
For some reason it has always been associated with promoting “rough dancing” in the way we have used it with words such as “Box the gnat, pull ’em by” – some dancers get over energenic with the “pull by”, which has not helped.
It does serve a purpose, which can be met in other ways such as “Turn Thru”, “Touch a 1/4, Hinge, step ahead” or simply “U Turn back”
In balance, drop it.
Hi,
I am against removing Box the Gnat.
The BtG is the easiest and most elegant way to get dancers from A to B without losing the facing formation in the end.
Agree with dropping the call. I like “Single Circle Halfway” as the drop-in replacement, or Pass Thru, U-Turn Back if needed.
As with other calls, there are absolutely wonderful things that can be done with it and Box the Gnat has a terrific Jitterbug feeling to it. But to me, that doesn’t justify keeping it on the entry level list. Among other things, the potential for wrist strain makes me want to defer this call until they have more experience with the activity and are well experienced in touching and releasing hands.
I agree that Singe Circle 1/2 is a very good choice to use in palce of Box the Gnat–it too has a dancing feeling to it, but is easier on the wrists.
I am in favor of preserving figures with a dance-like element, especially in the introductory program. A figure doesn’t just move dancers from A to B; the *how* also matters – it’s a dance. Of course, I fully understand the argument that older dancers may find it more difficult to perform certain figures. But is that the target group we are focusing on now?
Please don’t get me wrong—I am more than committed to providing older dancers with a great dance experience. And it is precisely the intergenerational interaction that makes our dance so unique. We are currently reshaping the image of Square Dance, and I believe that dance elements play an important role in this.
For this reason, I am against removing *Box the Gnat* (or replacing it with *Zig-Zag* or something similar).
I support dropping Box the Gnat. The reality of our dance demographic is that this is an awkward move for many. I was young once (!!) and danced this with flair and vigour as did the rest of us young uns. Times have changed and calling it now often results in a “let go” of hands. I’ll only miss it a bit (BG to a WWGrand, HS lines – BG & RLT, BG, Change hands, AL etc) but removing this one is a gentle sacrifice chareographically. I’m OK (and dancers wouldn’t necessarily miss it) to use “TQ, face right”, “PT, utb” as substitutes. I am in favour of adaptation as time moves to accept real changes in our dancers.
I am on the fence about this.
There is a good chance to have a great dancing experience if timed and danced correctly. (maybe with a nice choice of music it might feel like dancing a bit of rock and roll)
The call itself is not always smooth to dance and some dancer seem to have problems understanding, what to do with their hands without hurting themself or others.
I am unsure, if any dancer would miss it if not called regulary.
If dropped, just because it is not easy to teach or learn, once learned its a very nice piece of little choreo.
I’m also in favor of dropping btg.
There are so many possibilities to have the same effect. ( besides all said also single circle half way)
Dancers already found their way to “cheat” in the progress. So it seems, that they don’t like it or have troubles doing it (Shoulder problems etc.)
I am in favour of deleting BTG mainly because of our aging demographics and dancers are making their own adjustments to BTG.
It can be easily replaced with equivalents such as Pass Thru & UTB or Pass Thru, Wheel Around, 1/2 Sashay.
Will dancers miss? I think not
Box the gnat. I am in support of Box the Gnat being dropped. The call is versatile for normalization and has a history of leading into right and left grands or wrong way grands with a “hold on” prompt. It is still popular with box the gnat, fan the top (and other centre of the wave start movements using the ocean wave rule) so put it up with that.
Overall, however, I do not feel that box the gnat plays such an important role in the program that it could not be fixed with the flexibility of for example: Touch ¼, Face Right or Left Touch ¼ Face Left. All the standard existing follow-on flows still work without the often awkward “Change hands” or “Change girls” that seems to be part of the current dancing vernacular.
I am not teaching, nor in-fact calling to a club at the moment however I always was sure to use it as it was part of the program. To do otherwise would be an injustice to the dancers, but I would not be likely to miss this call if it were removed from the basic list. I support dropping box the gnat
I fully support keeping Box the Gnat. From a choreographic point of view it makes sashayed couples normal and vice versa. Since the call ends with joined right hands there are other options. Box the gnat is a useful call with resolutions (in sequence, normal arrangement, Box the Gnat, RL Grand). This call can be a lot of fun when you use in the context of “change hands” routines. This call is used in a variety of “ring” choreography. From a squared set: Head Men Face your corner and Box the gnat to give you all men and all girl couples. Box the gnat is a handy call available after Swing Thru (from BGBG or GBGB). I could give you a lot more examples. I find the call very popular (especially in SSD), and very useful.
I am on the fence. For people who have shoulder problems this can be a problem. But myself having a problem raising my right arm, I have adjusted to do it.
As we move forward in creating the best of all possible foundational lists, I think it is important to ask a few questions with each possible drop. For Box the Gnat (BTG) these are:
• Is this call an essential call that plays an important role in the program? I would say no.
• Is this call one that is used with an average to high degree of frequency? I would say no.
• How often do any of us use this call after we teach it? I think most would say rarely.
• How often does it occur in common choreography?–I would say rarely.
• Are there alternative equivalents that we can use instead of this call? Yes–easiest: Pass Thru, U Turn Back.
• Would dancers miss having this call? I would say no they wouldn’t.
• Do dancers execute the call with alternative action? Yes, many do.
I would support dropping Box the Gnat.
To me, DROP Box the Gnat. Good riddance!
Dropping BTG will be good for our young at heart dancers. I have noticed that this Ad-Hoc committee is leaning towards removing single call families. (Just an observation). If BTG gets removed, then we need to look at removing Wrong Way Grand from the RL Grand Family.
BTG has caused some of the dance floor to do a Touch a Quarter verses BTG. This is a good move to delete BTG!